2x 2x16GB 4000-CL16 (64GB) B-die vs. 2x32GB 4000-CL18 (64GB) non B-die auf einem Dark Hero / 5950x System?

[bidieeee]

Hallo,

Diese Nachricht wurde in Englisch verfasst und mit Google Translate übersetzt. Ich hoffe meine Frage macht Sinn 😉

Ich habe einen AMD Ryzen 5950x auf einem ROG Crosshair VIII Dark Hero Motherboard von ASUS.

Im vergangenen Monat kündigte G.Skill einige neue RAM-Sätze an, die für die Ryzen 5000-Serie optimiert wurden: https://www.gskill.us/forum/forum/g...ddr4-4000-cl16-16gbx2-für-amd-ryzen-5000-cpus

Zuerst war ich mir ziemlich sicher, welches ich bekommen würde:
Trident Z Neo DDR4-4000 CL18-22-22-42 64 GB (2x32GB)

Einer davon sollte der Produktname sein:
F4-4000C18D-64GTZN (0 Ergebnisse)
F4-4000C18Q-64GTZN (0 Ergebnisse)
F4-4000C18D2-64GTZN (0 Ergebnisse)
F4-4000C18Q2-64GTZN (0 Ergebnisse)

Es ist jedoch nichts online zu finden. Im wahrsten Sinne des Wortes nichts. Keine Informationen in Geschäften, nicht einmal eine Produktseite auf der Website von G.Skill. Sie haben Produktseiten online für die anderen RAM-Sätze.

Es scheint jedoch, dass sie eine Produktseite über dieses 4000er-Set für die RGB-Serie online haben. Lassen Sie mich denken: Haben sie falsche Informationen ausgegeben? In dem Artikel heißt es, dass alle Module Neo-Module sind. Keine RGB-Module.

Die RGB-Module scheinen auch älter zu sein. Von vor Dezember:
F4-4000C18D-64GTZR
F4-4000C18Q2-64GTZR

Meine Fragen sind also:

1. Weiß jemand, ob es ein 4000 CL18 2x32GB Neo-Set geben wird?
2. Würden Sie diesen 4000 CL18 2x32GB-Satz (nicht B-Chip) in Betracht ziehen oder vielleicht 2 Sätze 2x16GB Neo-Module bei 4000 CL16 verwenden?

Mein Ziel ist es, 64GB RAM mit einer effizienten Geschwindigkeit für die Ryzen 5000-Serie zu erreichen. Was mich mit der Neo-Serie zurücklässt.

Danke!

 

[Maurise]

Ok. Neo is more marketing than anything. since AMD is bad at coding they fuck up most launches. so RAM compability in the early Ryzen days was bad. RAM OC on AMD is mostly the same because the agesa versions come from AMD and if they fuck up something, every bios on that is shit. That and because XMP is an intel standard, wich means not every timing needed for AMD is in the profiles, G.Skill createt the NEO. if you have a newer 500 series MB you should have no issue going with traditional trident Z. But keep in mind that not every CPU can reach 2000MHz FCLK, espechially if you have a high capacity of RAM or populate 4 slots.

Since the covid thing and market problems, upcomming DDR5 and other, you cant get most kits anymore. in europe you have luck with most G.Skill but if you look on the websides most kits are gone. there are many building a PC, even if they cant get a new GPU. since transport is so expensive and prices are low, they probably dont want to ship in that much ether. also G.Skill is known for "releasing" products and not having them on the markit. F4-4400C18Q-32GTZR for the asus maximus z390 lineup was never to be found for example.

since you want 64Gb you ether can go 4x16GB with B-Die or micron rev e. samsung B-die is 8GBit so you can only make single rank 8GB or 16GB dual rank. rev e is 16GBit so you ether have 16GB sinlge rank or 32GB dual rank. i would not consider other ICs than these two.


i would go https://geizhals.de/crucial-ballist...t-64gb-bl2k32g36c16u4bl-a2222856.html?hloc=de
or if you have the money 2x https://geizhals.de/crucial-ballistix-max-rgb-dimm-kit-32gb-blm2k16g40c18u4bl-a2222368.html?hloc=de
non RGB is always cheaper

https://geizhals.de/g-skill-ripjaws-v-schwarz-dimm-kit-32gb-f4-4000c16d-32gvk-a2431762.html?hloc=de x2 is also good. the RGB is out of stock but you might get lucky https://geizhals.de/g-skill-trident-z-rgb-dimm-kit-32gb-f4-4000c16d-32gtzr-a2377329.html?hloc=de

if you want to OC yourself its much cheaper
https://geizhals.de/g-skill-trident-z-neo-dimm-kit-64gb-f4-3600c16q-64gtzn-a2099488.html?hloc=de or

G.Skill Trident Z Neo DIMM Kit 64GB, DDR4-3600, CL14-15-15-35 (F4-3600C14Q-64GTZN) ab € 521,09 (2024) | Preisvergleich Geizhals Deutschland

✔ Preisvergleich für G.Skill Trident Z Neo DIMM Kit 64GB, DDR4-3600, CL14-15-15-35 (F4-3600C14Q-64GTZN) ✔ Produktinfo ⇒ Typ: DDR4 DIMM 288-Pin • Übertragung: 3600MT/s (3600MHz effektiv - abgeleitet von 1800MHz I/O-Takt mit Do… ✔ Speicher ✔ Testberichte ✔ Günstig kaufen

geizhals.de

that are my ideas. sorry for the bad english

 

[bidieeee]

Ok. Neo is more marketing than anything. since AMD is bad at coding they fuck up most launches. so RAM compability in the early Ryzen days was bad. RAM OC on AMD is mostly the same because the agesa versions come from AMD and if they fuck up something, every bios on that is shit. That and because XMP is an intel standard, wich means not every timing needed for AMD is in the profiles, G.Skill createt the NEO. if you have a newer 500 series MB you should have no issue going with traditional trident Z. But keep in mind that not every CPU can reach 2000MHz FCLK, espechially if you have a high capacity of RAM or populate 4 slots.

Hi, thank you for your answer! Also in English!

Right now I'm building a computer from the idea that all components should be compatible 100% from the start. In the past 20 years there always was 'something' which made something not function correctly for 100%. So I basically bought every most expensive and newest component there is to make sure I could prevent any hick ups

I bought the ASUS ROG Crosshair VIII Dark Hero X570 motherboard and added an AMD Ryzen 5950X. As for the memory, I really like to buy some RAM that has been confirmed testing/working or at least be 'Ryzen 5000 ready'. Which is basically why I ended up with Trident Z Neo. I know the Dark Hero board will support many other types of memory and I know that G.Skill is being smart in terms of marketing their Neo-line to be 'Ryzen optimized'. But for once I just want to make sure the RAM I'm buying will not have any issues.

Another thing with the RAM, is that I want it to be 64GB at a high speed. Which means my RAM set would have to be 3800MHz or 4000MHz (which so happen to be among the new series that was announced). As you mentioned, the 4000MHz modules might not even be released. Not a single store is mentioning the product name. While instead the new announced 3800MHz is. In this case, the F4-3800C18D-64GTZN.

I have looked at all your options. The QVL information on all of those modules don't mention the new Dark Hero board. I'm also not sure what effect it will have when I install two sets of RAM. I tend to lean towards 1 set only. Being a 2x32GB kit or a 4x16GB kit. However, there is a lot of discussion going on in terms of the Dark Hero and the 5950X whether 2 modules are better over 4 modules in case of 64GB. Which is what I basicallly meant with my title. 4x16GB or 2x32GB

since you want 64Gb you ether can go 4x16GB with B-Die or micron rev e. samsung B-die is 8GBit so you can only make single rank 8GB or 16GB dual rank. rev e is 16GBit so you ether have 16GB sinlge rank or 32GB dual rank. i would not consider other ICs than these two.

Now this is another thing. From the two options I mentioned above, 2x32GB doesn't give me B-die modules. 4x16GB might be. I know dual rank works better for at least Ryzen 5000. I personally prefer B-die over E-die. That would leave me with at least 16GB dual rank modules which have B-die chips. Meaning, I would HAVE to go with 4x16GB of RAM. Whether it's better to have 2 modules installed over 4 modules or not.

Unless I go with a 2x32GB set without B-die, which is basically already optimized for Ryzen 5000. Like the F4-3800C18D-64GTZN. In that case I can't really benefit from adjusting timings.

Why I don't prefer 3600MHz modules? From what I read, it's harder to overclock than to downclock. So it's easier/better to change 4000MHz/CL18 modules to, for example CL16, than 3600MHz/CL14 to 3800MHz.

I hope this gives a better motivation on my search for a proper set of RAM

Basically I'm looking at the F4-3800C18D-64GTZN kit or another kit that has 4x16GB B-die dual rank modules at maybe lower timings. I'm really looking at the best compatible modules at the highest possible speeds that could get me to 64GB of RAM.

Thanks for your answer!

 

[Maurise]

dual rank dosnt work better. 2 DIMM does over 4 DIMM, so if you do 32GB you go 2x16. the rank interleaving gives you a performance benefit over single rank per channel. if you have a B-die kit it dosnt really matter what bin it is. 3200 14-14-14 can do in 99% of the time the same as 3800 14-16-16 1,5V or 4000 16-19-19 1,4. it dosnt matter because B-Die is voltage driven. if you need 50mV more for a setting it dosnt matter. micron rev e or b cant scale tRP and so with voltage. so you end up with specific timings for your kit. 18-19-19 4000MHz 1,35V can only do 16-19-19 1,4V while B-die does 4000 17-17-17 1,35V to 4000 15-16-16 1,5V and so on.

it dosn really matter what kit you but. my tip is, buy the 3600 14-15-15 1.45V kit. thats a good start and has a high chance of working from the start. then try for 3800 14-16-16 1,5V and stress test with mem test and p95. if it dosnt work try higher timings like 16-18-18 1.4V and so on. or you look whats the max FCLK and work from there. 19-19-19-39-(AMD Timing like 59?) are the best timings for testing frequency. and then just go for 1,45V and try how low you can get them. only main timings isnt that hard. you can do subtimings if you like, but 8 ranks ob B-die on 1,45-1,5V and low subtimings make a lot of heat. if you dont strip a 120/140mm fan on the RAM it might overheat and get instable, so keep that in mind. you can check temps with HWinfo64

 

[bidieeee]

Thank you again for your detailed answer.

I hope one thing was clear though: I'm really aiming at 64GB over 32GB 😉

From what I understand, 2 DIMMS are better than 4 DIMMS. In that case I'm basically stuck with 2x32GB. But... there are no B-die 32GB modules, right? I'm also stuck with 4 slots on the Dark Hero.

So would you advice 4x16GB B-die modules or just skip the B-die options and go for 2x32GB modules?

This is basically the dilemma I'm having. Would it be worse to run 4x16GB B-die's or would it be worse to not use B-die and just simply go for 2x32GB modules.

For example, G.Skill's latest Ryzen 5000 optimized series contains the F4-3800C18D-64GTZN (2x32GB). In that case I'm pretty much stuck with CL18 as the timings are harder (to not) adjustable.
There are also other 2x32GB sets, but again, I first would like to make sure that they are compatible with the Dark Hero motherboard and the Ryzen 9 5950X CPU.

In case I DO want to go with 16GB modules (4x16GB), that changes a lot. 4 DIMM's might not be preferable, but in terms of timings, that might make up for it. For example, if I can get a kit at CL14 or CL16 (compared to CL18) that might still make it faster than a CL18 2x32GB set. Right? Especially when I'm able to adjust timings manually like you mentioned in your post. Which seem to be aimed more at a 2x16GB configuration?

Priority: Capacitiy (64GB), followed by speed (3800/4000MHz over 3600MHz), followed by CL (preferably at 1.4/1.45 V to balance the heat, like you mention). Which all has to do with the fact this is a video/3d editing system. Going with 3600MHz feels like going with cheaper tires on a Ferrari, lol 😜 The Dark Hero should be able to support way higher. I'm already spending €4000, so it's not really about 'saving money'. Basically you are saying it's preferable to overclock 3600 to 3800 instead of 4000 to 3800? Given the timings you mentioned?

I'm not necessarily 'stuck' with G.Skill. Like I said, it's more to do with using new hardware and using new hardware that is actually been tested with this newer hardware. Which is why I automatically referred to the new G.Skill sets. I'm not necessarily a fan or not a fan.

Sorry If I repeat a few things. I just want to make sure I'm describing my questions clear

 

[Maurise]

well, since you dont consider crucial, there is no point in 32Gb modules in my mind. the hynix ICs are so much worse, you wont get far ether.

so 4x16Gb it is. if there is a board that can runt it, its yours, so thats in your favor. since there is no high B-Die bin other than the 3600 14-15-15 you can get, i would go with that.
if you can get your hands on that https://geizhals.de/g-skill-trident-z-neo-dimm-kit-32gb-f4-3800c14d-32gtzn-a2428693.html?hloc=de it might be better. still you can improve it.
Optimal for you is to match the FCLk with your RAM clock (since ever its called for example 4000MHz on the box but actually its 2000MHz with double data rate, or 4000 million transfers/s). that depends only on your CPU. could be 1800-2000MHz or 3600-4000MHz RAM. Timing wise its better to run around 3800Mhz since ryzen cant handle uneven cas latency. so you jump from cl 14 to 16 if you arent super lucky and can run 4000 cl 14 on 1,55V. the higher you go with voltage the harder it is to get it stable.

so go with 3600 14-15-15 or 3800 14-16-16 if you find it.

 

[nBlacky]

I have a question. If you already have 4000MHz why should you go higher? I mean all who buy 3600 MHz they try to get 4000 MHz by overclocking.

I also try to buy some good RAMs but the choice is very very very fucking very hard Do i go for 3600 2x32 or should go directly to 128GB or maybe should I go for 4000 MHz. MAAAAAN what a choice.

 

[Tatilica]

Hi everyone on this thread, read about your hard choice alternative 4000 ram issue, AMD leave the answer behind! Update after update Agesa combo, after 2 years long, still no way to improve ram stability on 4000 IF2000 WHEA19 Errors
Just got 2x 8Gb Viper 4000Mhz CL16 running like a charm at 3800 free Whea19, everything over 3933 a few dozen and couple hundred of them at 4000Mhz, no matter what I tried to configure in Bios current Agesa 1.2.0.7 Finnaly I decided go for 102 BUS just to benefit for 3944Mhz perfect stable setup running no Whea19 after all, but how knows, I believe we can survive NO 4000 IF2000 Whea19 free ?!?