[Sammelthread] Intel DDR5 RAM OC Thread

SA is the key, but I am afraid it cannot go lower than 1.24V. Maybe if I can find a good VDD2, that can help to reduce the SA.
Maybe ProcODT influenced by both:
1706429648260.png
It is the Key,
But SA influencing ODT is just ~ a side issue

Delta between VDDQ's
And lower level, VREF generation on % of VDDQ
is already done based on Boardsfoundation and Training

ODT is self defined.
Self defining for the users.

There may or may not be an ability to change behavior by ME and different Memory Blob updates
But its not much for the user to worry about. Not on our/their control.
As long as every Boarddesign & DIMMs capacity is factored in for VDDQ-2-VDDQ target
There shouldnt be any issue.

SA ≠ Vodt
Lookup table may or may not exist tho.
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This feature tho, is great :)
Looks good and easy to use
Would consier to drop P10 & P11 a bit
Peaks too high.
At least, p10
 
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It is the Key,
But SA influencing ODT is just ~ a side issue

Delta between VDDQ's
And lower level, VREF generation on % of VDDQ
is already done based on Boardsfoundation and Training

ODT is self defined.
Self defining for the users.

There may or may not be an ability to change behavior by ME and different Memory Blob updates
But its not much for the user to worry about. Not on our/their control.
As long as every Boarddesign & DIMMs capacity is factored in for VDDQ-2-VDDQ target
There shouldnt be any issue.

SA ≠ Vodt
Lookup table may or may not exist tho.
Beitrag automatisch zusammengeführt:


This feature tho, is great :)
Looks good and easy to use
Would consier to drop P10 & P11 a bit
Peaks too high.
At least, p10
Yes, VDDQ could be the key too, if SA is stucked, but it's really hard at 8600. For daily the existing profile would be already enough, but I want more. :)
Thinking on 8600 C36 instead of C38 with high VDD, so I could get a nice delta which is always better in my case.

I tried lower the P10, but Geekbench 6 is crashing. This is the miniimum level. If I raise it, it will raise the 57X too, which is an issue for Y-Cruncher Vmin.
When the chiller will be in my system I will be able to reduce the P10 I believe. Maybe P11 drop wouldn't hurt for the stability.

AI Suite is nice, but it can f*ck up the EC readings in Hwinfo, but it's really nice to set the V/F under load, so I can see the Voltage change during VST/VT3 load.
 
Thinking on 8600 C36 instead of C38 with high VDD, so I could get a nice delta which is always better in my case.
It will become a variable of instability
No need to work on timings when its a signal issue.
No need to increase voltage further, when data-eye is bad (else DFE wouldnt be needed).
 
The thing I thought maybe it could help, because I can keep the big delta between VDD and VDDQ.
Unless you got zero's
and unless y-cruncher errors instantly
Its not a communication , but a training and signal quality issue.

I'll need some data to refresh memory again :d
Last quest i remember was
"Try to get it as stable as possible without RX-DFE. Later we will use more magic tricks."

You wont go around slopes skewing and other non-timing, non voltage related changes.
Wont work higher without. Bios is mature but seems not thaat much, else there wouldnt be DFE issues.
 
Unless you got zero's
and unless y-cruncher errors instantly
Its not a communication , but a training and signal quality issue.

I'll need some data to refresh memory again :d
Last quest i remember was
"Try to get it as stable as possible without RX-DFE. Later we will use more magic tricks."

You wont go around slopes skewing and other non-timing, non voltage related changes.
Wont work higher without. Bios is mature but seems not thaat much, else there wouldnt be DFE issues.
I will try my stable TM5 profile with RX-DFE off later. For that I have time, just have to leave the computer to do it alone. :)
Wish I could do it.
B-plan would be to install my MC SP 90 CPU, but that one is degraded and need higher Voltage for everything.
 
No need, many options are conveniently left open
For instance? RTT's and ODT's?
Vref?
The TM5 itself is okay, so as you said the signal quality should be fixed. But for that I have no idea. Could be the VDD2 too, that's a hard part actually.
Or completely different voltages with everything customized could help too.
What happens if I stabilize a nice 8533 profile and start raising Bclk? I saw on OCN that SoldierRBT does that and works for him up to 8700. Strange technique, but works.:)
 
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What happens if I stabilize a nice 8533 profile and start raising Bclk?
I saw on OCN that SoldierRBT does that and works for him up to 8700. Strange technique, but works.:)
The what i would call "issue" in what i could track and which lend me to completely change courses from "Overclocking" to "Researching"
// which funnily didn't really ease toxicity levels of the 3-4% that made the field difficult to work in.
was that "going around a problem, is never the resolve". Even if digging for more ways to do that is creative and fun work.
&
"to invest time in tracking the efects of your changes & their severity."
Watching and trying to simulate the event ~ instead of spending all time trial and error looking for easy resolves.
Hence not focusing on the actual foundation that causes your soon reaching "wall".

The Problem with above's mentioned method is:

That first of all, training is important.
You may create dynamic variables, but those are controllable and take control from more variables.
Isolating the issue in chunks.
Going around training is no resolve. Helping and speeding training with manually defined values, may be a resolve.

The 2nd one is,
Because training is important in combinig those dozzens of variables into smaller ones & and pushing behavior never is completely linear,
You need some anchor points.
Every clock needs specific values, and not everything scales at the same rate.

Doing BLCK shifting,
~ Shifts syncronization between nCK. And the "air" between user changable timings.
~ Messes up V/F curve and so their ramp up/down time. Their switching position
~ Messes up internal clock which not always depends on BCLK. (There is more than core clk and ring clk). Soo messes up sync integers between crucial compontents
~ May mess up graphical and storage devices, and definitely messes with signal strength and so board-deffined Signal-Redriver (settings) become unffitting.

Its a multi layer issue
But basically comes down to
"The board will not know what to do, because you shift the perception of target anchor points. You shift what clock needs what timers, and what the value of the clock even means."
In short :-)
For instance? RTT's and ODT's?
Vref?
Vref is a byproduct.
A generated byproduct with considered margins.

RTTs are a signal strength multiplier, 2ndary acting as a control gate
With additive "extra's" , in not only controling wakeup times and actions,
But being able to have correction algorithms and signal aware algorithms bound to them.

Its imaginable as last stage (in house) automated control, of whatever they receive as input.

ODTs are pre-arrive signal strength multipliers, with the same job as above
They are more "analogue" so to say and only do one job.
To what i see they are rather used as anchorpoints for triggering other tasks
But by itself are just analogue and do one thing.
There is no digital logic in it, because its just the Raw Material and transistors, resistors and shielding.
You can combine more (i forgot the name) parts, to create a stronger or weaker filtering.

Sorry i havent had the luxury to study in that field much. Neither a teacher;

CPU side:
~ PLL
~ Curve and throttling part we mostly are ok with
~ Data filtering and data recognition algorithms (hidden in Debug menu for timings and on SA's side)

MEM side:
~ manual forced training of already skipped algorithms (else training would take like on AMD 90-120sec)
~ same Data Filtering algorithms
~ Manual link syncronization when training fails and or Bios lacks lookup-values for specific clock (slopes)
~ manual variable change of per-channel MC-Link filtering (RONs)
~ better powerdown tuning and clock halt tuning. Signals are never 100% active, nor send at fullspeed all the time.
~ aside from shifting and aligning , also changing strength of it (RX-EQ)

You can do still a lot.
What you have changed is maybe 20%
Because the rest "just has to work" & i dont want you to mess with it.
This is ODM and Boardpartners work to make it "just work". :geek:

You have not messed with the very core foundation. Neither for Mem, nor the mainboard itself.
and like mentioned:
"Memory timings are just extra's. If powering foundation is bad, forget timings as a variable"

Also there is one last thing you can do in the memory trickbook ~ when it comes to error correction :)
SPD Hub is quite interesting in its behavior. Most kits are programmed equally, but there is still room to fool around with.


Many many left options
But i dont want to suggest things that are far too early to utilize.
And its bad practice too, teaching tricks and shenanigans when the foundation has higher-priority issues.
Step by step :giggle:
The TM5 itself is okay, so as you said the signal quality should be fixed.
Very very basic , haha.
TM5 can only talk in "good or bad".
Not in "how good".

Like said, there are still many tricks to utilize
But i want you to at least get 8600 fine. Before moving on.
Its difficult, but not yet its time.

Starting now with PLLs and slopes skewing, will make it harder to isolate further issues.
Already no easy-access to crucial board-tuning options (30+), are strongly limiting max-clock.
 
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The what I would call "issue" in what I could track and which lend me to completely change courses from "Overclocking" to "Researching"
// which funnily didn't really ease toxicity levels of the 3-4% that made the field difficult to work in.
Was that "going around a problem, is never the resolved". Even if digging for more ways to do that is creative and fun work.
&
"to invest time in tracking the effects of your changes & their severity."
Watching and trying to simulate the event ~ instead of spending all time trial and error looking for easy resolves.
Hence not focusing on the actual foundation that causes your soon reaching "wall".

The Problem with above's mentioned method is:

That first of all, training is important.
You may create dynamic variables, but those are controllable and take control from more variables.
Isolating the issue in chunks.
Going around training is no resolution. Helping and speeding training with manually defined values, may be a resolve.

The 2nd one is,
Because training is important in combining those dozens of variables into smaller ones & and pushing behavior never is completely linear,
You need some anchor points.
Every clock needs specific values, and not everything scales at the same rate.

Doing BLCK shifting,
~ Shifts synchronization between nCK. And the "air" between user changeable timings.
~ Measures up V/F curve and so their ramp up/down time. Their switching position
~Messes up internal clock which not always depends on BCLK. (There is more than core clk and ring clk). So messes up sync integers between crucial components
~ May mess up graphical and storage devices, and definitely messes with signal strength and so board-defined Signal-Redriver (settings) become unfitting.

It's a multi-layer issue
But basically comes down to
"The board will not know what to do, because you shift the perception of target anchor points. You shift what clock needs what timers, and what the value of the clock even means."
In shorts:-)

Vref is a byproduct.
A generated byproduct with considered margins.

RTTs are a signal strength multiplier, 2ndary acting as a control gate
With additive "extra's" , in not only controlling wakeup times and actions,
But being able to have correction algorithms and signal aware algorithms bound to them.

Its imaginable as last stage (in house) automated control, of whatever they receive as input.

ODTs are pre-arrive signal strength multipliers, with the same job as above
They are more "analogous" so to say and only do one job.
To what I see they are rather used as anchorpoints for triggering other tasks
But by themselves they are just analogue and do one thing.
There is no digital logic in it, because its just the Raw Material and transistors, resistors and shielding.
You can combine more (I forgot the name) parts to create a stronger or weaker filtering.

Sorry I haven't had the luxury to study in that field much. Neither a teacher;


CPU side:
~PLL
~ Curve and throttling part we mostly are ok with
~ Data filtering and data recognition algorithms (hidden in Debug menu for timings and on SA's side)

MEM side:
~ manual forced training of already skipped algorithms (else training would take like on AMD 90-120sec)
~ same data filtering algorithms
~ Manual link synchronization when training fails and or Bios lacks lookup-values for specific clock (slopes)
~ manual variable change of per-channel MC-Link filtering (RONs)
~ better powerdown tuning and clock stop tuning. Signals are never 100% active, nor send at full speed all the time.
~ aside from shifting and aligning , also changing strength of it (RX-EQ)

You can still do a lot.
What you have changed is maybe 20%
Because the rest "just has to work" & I don't want you to mess with it.
This is ODM and Boardpartners work to make it "just work".:geek:

You have not messed with the very core foundation. Neither for Mem, nor the mainboard itself.
and like mentioned:
"Memory timings are just extra's. If powering foundation is bad, forget timings as a variable"

And there is one last thing you can do in the memory trickbook ~ when it comes to error correction:)
SPD Hub is quite interesting in its behavior. Most kits are programmed equally, but there is still room to fool around with.


Many many options left
But I don't want to suggest things that are far too early to utilize.
And its bad practice too, teaching tricks and shenanigans when the foundation has higher-priority issues.
Step by step:giggle:

Very very basic, haha.
TM5 can only talk in "good or bad".
Not in “how good”.

Like said, there are still many tricks to utilize
But I want you to at least get 8600 fine. Before moving on.
It's difficult, but not yet its time.

Starting now with PLLs and slopes skewing, will make it harder to isolate further issues.
Already no easy-access to crucial board-tuning options (30+), are strongly limiting max-clock.
That's a lot of variables to consider. Since I am close to the wall with my SA, maybe 1-2 tricks would help meg.
VTT (PLL termination Voltage) is always 1.040V for me, maybe a little bump to 1.050V would help a little.
I am actually lost here at this point :d
Maybe the foundation should be completely changed. It's always based on the same ideas from me, but yes, maybe a different TX delta, or SA should help.
It's time consuming, but I will try to adjust it here and there.
HT off would be another trick, but that would be too easy. :)
 
HT off would be another trick, but that would be too easy. :)
Going around instability inside the CPU.
No option.
You are not "weak CPU" limited.
Not yet;
VTT (PLL termination Voltage) is always 1.040V for me, maybe a little bump to 1.050V would help a little.
You can, but before we touch PLL and skew with signals , when reports already are that signals are too noisy.
We touch Slopes as next work.
Before starting that, we test how far you come without assisting DFE and then check if the DQs are the issue or the DQS 2 CLK , is the issue (alignment)
Things drift by thermals and boot2boot drifts by ... lacking logic in bios :)

Sorry for judging it soo much, but
Because the rest "just has to work" & i dont want you to mess with it.
This is ODM and Boardpartners work to make it "just work". :geek:
I'm not in the position to apply and send you a fix.
This is safedisk's work too. Maybe. I dont know his exact position and work tbh.
There are many people even at "just" the Firmware side & then OCing side.

Also days of biosmods are over. Higher'up doesn't like the exposing of those options, which i guess is what it is.
People that do a good job, pay the penalty of my rebelling and pushing. To the point of chit-chatting with me being a bad thing.
I've harmed enough, and prefer to not supply some ways in how to change things around. Not worth the trade.

We tune with what we have right now.
We tune better if you get access to more options
Thats how it is today :)

Anywho
Maybe the foundation should be completely changed. It's always based on the same ideas from me, but yes, maybe a different TX delta, or SA should help.
The foundation will change
Because sooner or later you will have to mess with RTTs for your specific kit.
First in figuring out what the current behavior is, and then checking how much to mess with it soo that you can push more voltage for your kits.

VDD2 & VDDQ ~ CPU side, will anyways change, and have to change for more clock.
Because of that, its too early to even cosider usage of PLL ~ that effectively cap the max voltage you can use.
At the exchange of same voltage becoming stronger & so needing less of it.

I still don't think your issue is lack of voltage or CPU "limits".
Give some new reports and we will see where it is.
"voltage issues" are #12.935 those.
Complete inability to run y-cruncher and instant error on TM5 :-)
So also can be caused by slopes, but yes ~ those are voltage & margin issues. Not your case.

Your case is,
Memory is unhappy with whatever it gets, and IMC is unhappy with noisy signal.
No need to even further increase and add more of noisy signal.
 
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Also days of biosmods are over. Higher'up doesn't like the exposing of those options, which i guess is what it is.
People that do a good job, pay the penalty of my rebelling and pushing. To the point of chit-chatting with me being a bad thing.
I've harmed enough, and prefer to not supply some ways in how to change things around. Not worth the trade.
This is a bad thing. They are trying to hide their things, but the competition could reverse engineer it for sure. There is nothing to hide actually (in my opinion).
You shouldn't be famous at ASUS HQ, actually they should hire you.
Safedisk and the others are active on forums, but in my opinion they should listen to the users instead of showing their OC results with binned parts. :)
I miss Bianbao, he was there for studying actually.

VDD2 & VDDQ ~ CPU side, will anyways change, and have to change for more clock.
Because of that, its too early to even cosider usage of PLL ~ that effectively cap the max voltage you can use.
At the exchange of same voltage becoming stronger & so needing less of it.
This two will be the key for stability, I have to work on them, but first I will retest the old profile without RX-DFE and report back.
 
You are not "weak CPU" limited.
Not yet;
I still don't think your issue is lack of voltage or CPU "limits".
Give some new reports and we will see where it is.
"voltage issues" are #12.935 those.

@tibcsi0407 you know how you can verify that
Disable one MC-Link in the Timings window

This should show you 4 thing:
~ are RONs ok
~ are both CPU channels somewhat identical (available compute and errors may change between channels, or may be the same)
~ is the board being weak (far too unlikely, given 11 000MT/s is done on it ~ nevertheless.
~ is it a voltage issue inside the CPU or is it just bad SNR
If this changes zero, then its not voltage related but just too much signal noise
If it changes, you will need more voltage, but its not exactly black & white.

DQ's & DQS per dimm will not change, when you disable a channel.
Their timing shouldnt change.
VDDQ_CPU to MEM also shouldnt change here. Slightly may, but barely to non.
What will change is how much voltage IMC wants. But thats not our problem.

Soo lets see~
You shouldn't be famous at ASUS HQ, actually they should hire you.
I don't mind the location.
It's on the Boardpartners to decide if they want to invest time into coaching me with exchange of work
or not.

It will not be me that first gets to Taiwan, without being invited.
We will see about the future, but i know i can be needed and beneficial.
Its rather that i've supported enough and stand neutral to every Boardpartner.
I've started to not care about the Branding or Bios but just the PCB quality and retrofit things to my liking.
// be it early on with putting a Gigabyte and Biostar bios on my ASRock ITX :sneaky:
Its just a GUI after all, with some fashion aspects.

If, then it must come from them. I will not beg.
Else my research remains neutral and everyone will herby benefit equally from it.
and the others are active on forums, but in my opinion they should listen to the users instead
Its part of the work.
Being supportive can be part of the work.
Helping users too. Because everyone prefers user-experience instead of marketing.

Question is who pays the bills,
so that you can spend your time for everyone else except yourself.
A forum doesn't pay, thats for sure.
Being youtuber is a business too and needs payment for your employee's.

Supporting is not a requirement. Neither a necessity.
Its a luxury, by the will of the researcher.
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but first I will retest the old profile without RX-DFE and report back.
No need to load something different.
Just disable RX-DFE toggle and please resubmit a report of y-cruncher and TM5 failing.
Then disable a channel and re'do the same.
Please test both channels. At best this is 3* 50min work.

From that point then we will look further.
 
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I updated BIOS to1801 today, still testing.

Manually loaded 8200 profile and noticed with everything in Auto,.. All voltages are much lower, stable vs 0066.

With all BIOS settings, timings exactly the same,.. it's strange that tWRRD_sg, and tWRRD_dg train differant on 1801 vs 0066.

Screenshot 2024-01-28 013321 8200 CL36 0066 vs 1801.png Screenshot 2024-01-28 050536 8200 CL36  0066 vs 1801.png Screenshot 2024-01-28 044531 8200 CL36 BOIS 1801.png
 
Manually loaded 8200 profile and noticed with everything in Auto,.. All voltages are much lower, stable vs 0066.
tWR is basically non existent on default
in exchange for stability, they pushed slow WTR_ ??

it's strange that tWRRD_sg, and tWRRD_dg train differant
One was 4-20 (likely based on OCers target)
new is 12-42
I wonder why soo high.
Its wasteful, but should guarantee stability for XMP i guess.

tWTR short,
at 4nCK remains the correct target
But this at very high clock, can start to be ineffective and far too fast.
1706447626218.png

It will also cause issues for people who run RAS silly low and depend on ... alternative methods of loadasign.
We even use two MCs and slow it down. Writes are less of an issue, when each MC handles a subchannel.
I don't like this change ~ but i hope the only target is higher compatibility.

Values at least make sense now.
20 WTR_Long made no sense. 24 makes sense on 24gb kits.
48 may make more sense on WTRL failsafe, but eh ~ whatever :)
36 is an option, but 48 is rather the target for failsafe.
 
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@tibcsi0407 you know how you can verify that
Disable one MC-Link in the Timings window

This should show you 4 thing:
~ are RONs ok
~ are both CPU channels somewhat identical (available compute and errors may change between channels, or may be the same)
~ is the board being weak (far too unlikely, given 11 000MT/s is done on it ~ nevertheless.
~ is it a voltage issue inside the CPU or is it just bad SNR
If this changes zero, then its not voltage related but just too much signal noise
If it changes, you will need more voltage, but its not exactly black & white.

DQ's & DQS per dimm will not change, when you disable a channel.
Their timing shouldnt change.
VDDQ_CPU to MEM also shouldnt change here. Slightly may, but barely to non.
What will change is how much voltage IMC wants. But thats not our problem.

Soo lets see~

I don't mind the location.
It's on the Boardpartners to decide if they want to invest time into coaching me with exchange of work
or not.

It will not be me that first gets to Taiwan, without being invited.
We will see about the future, but i know i can be needed and beneficial.
Its rather that i've supported enough and stand neutral to every Boardpartner.
I've started to not care about the Branding or Bios but just the PCB quality and retrofit things to my liking.
// be it early on with putting a Gigabyte and Biostar bios on my ASRock ITX :sneaky:
Its just a GUI after all, with some fashion aspects.

If, then it must come from them. I will not beg.
Else my research remains neutral and everyone will herby benefit equally from it.

Its part of the work.
Being supportive can be part of the work.
Helping users too. Because everyone prefers user-experience instead of marketing.

Question is who pays the bills,
so that you can spend your time for everyone else except yourself.
A forum doesn't pay, thats for sure.
Being youtuber is a business too and needs payment for your employee's.

Supporting is not a requirement. Neither a necessity.
Its a luxury, by the will of the researcher.
Beitrag automatisch zusammengeführt:


No need to load something different.
Just disable RX-DFE toggle and please resubmit a report of y-cruncher and TM5 failing.
Then disable a channel and re'do the same.
Please test both channels. At best this is 3* 50min work.

From that point then we will look further.
Thank you, I will do that. This will need more time from my side, so maybe I will report back later.
I agree with you about ASUS support. But still, I liked that I got a lot of BIOS. Now we are happy if we get it monthly, or less.

Without DFE I couldn't even boot (Qcode 55), so need some change here and there. Raising Dram VDDQ helped to boot.
 
Without DFE I couldn't even boot (Qcode 55), so need some change here and there. Raising Dram VDDQ helped to boot.
Hahaha
Aww

VDDQ_MEM only or which ?
I dont like the simplified names much.
Causes confusion

Hey,
You found one (of many) issues, maybe~
 
Hahaha
Aww

VDDQ_MEM only or which ?
I dont like the simplified names much.
Causes confusion

Hey,
You found one (of many) issues, maybe~
Sorry, it was VDDQ_MEM, but I bumped the VDDQ_TX too to keep the delta.
Yeah, that DFE could be one of the issues, now need to find a new foundation to do the tests for 1 channel.
 
Sorry, it was VDDQ_MEM, but I bumped the VDDQ_TX too to keep the delta.
Yeah, that DFE could be one of the issues, now need to find a new foundation to do the tests for 1 channel.
Because DFE will never harm.
Well ... it can be bad, but more bad is having non.
Type of DFE becomes bad, once you can not live without DFE (multiple).
Which kinda is already your case for your DIMMs, but DFE on TX side is enough.

RX side like once mentioned, is differing between DIMM-Vendor and or DIMM-PCB designer
Hence access for both DFE's (given ODT+PLL will mess with it, including capacity) ~ is required to the user.
Strict-controlling AMD even gives this option.
Taps amount needs access (minimum). More is not better and can have negative effect.
 
Because DFE will never harm.
Well ... it can be bad, but more bad is having non.
Type of DFE becomes bad, once you can not live without DFE (multiple).
Which kinda is already your case for your DIMMs, but DFE on TX side is enough.

RX side like once mentioned, is differing between DIMM-Vendor and or DIMM-PCB designer
Hence access for both DFE's (given ODT+PLL will mess with it, including capacity) ~ is required to the user.
Strict-controlling AMD even gives this option. Taps amount needs access. More is not better and can have negative effect.
Yes, now on auto, we will see what can I do without that.

I will start VDD2 from a low point and rising it slowly to see how it influences the stability.
 
tWR is basically non-existent on default
in exchange for stability, they pushed slow WTR_ ??


One was 4-20 (likely based on OCers target)
new is 12-42
I wonder why so high.
Its wasteful, but should guarantee stability for XMP i guess.

tWTR short,
at 4nCK remains the correct target
But this at very high clock, can start to be ineffective and far too fast.
Anhang anzeigen 964537
It will also cause issues for people who run RAS silly low and depend on ... alternative methods of loadasign.
We even use two MCs and slow it down. Writes are less of an issue when each MC handles a subchannel.
I don't like this change ~ but I hope the only target is higher compatibility.

Values at least make sense now.
20 WTR_Long made no sense. 24 makes sense on 24gb kits.
48 may make more sense on WTRL failsafe, but eh ~ whatever:)
36 is an option, but 48 is rather the target for failsafe.

You have very good eyesight,
I did not see the difference in WTR_L, WTR_S,.. so best to leave it 48-16, as failsafe. Thanks.

Will need to fix WTR_L, and _S,.. and tRDRD before moving on, there needs alinment. I will keep testing 8-16-32-8-32. :-)
 
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You have very good eyesight,
I did not see the difference in WTR_L, WTR_S,.. so best to leave it 48-16, as failsafe. Thanks.
Just calculated WRRD, given recent discussion with "WTR_S" becoming ignored by the board ~ if too low.
8-12-32-8-24 is still fine

You can extend to 8-16-32-8-32 if you want.
It will be slow, but if you search for clock, its kind of irrelevant :)
Was just input on the change, as target is an awkward value.

WRites happen between the reads.
There needs alignment. Even if you can do silly things now with two MC's that are outside of specifications.
Alignment for roundtrip is either with Reads.
Alignment can be done with tBURST, lets say scale of 2*3 nCK instead scale of 2*4 nCK
And value can be random too, letting memory or CPU handle load assinging with possibly hitting empty holes that cause waiting for nothing

Same waiting for nothing that will happen if tRDRD_ , is not factor of 8.
Can shorten roundtrip (_L) time, but sooner or later one whole cycle is just missed.

If i could suggest things,
WTR_,
Keep both values dividable by the same integer. Be it 6 or 4.
And then for WRWR_, add to the WTR_S value +8 ontop.
Thats your good value then.
Else "good value" is 16 on WRWR_SG & Communication-Hub will handle the rest.

8-16-32-8-32 (failsafe)
or
8-12-32-8-24
remain good values.
RRD, FAW, WTR

WRite after WRite is
WTR_S + 8nCK
First can be 4nCK long (min) - but correct correct formula:
first is exactly half of RRD_S == CCD_S
Whatever that value is set at.

Then 2nd write if no read is happening (aka tWRWR_ timing) ~ is VALUE +8 nCK.
Beitrag automatisch zusammengeführt:

8-16-32-8-32 (failsafe)
or
8-12-32-8-24
remain good values.
RRD, FAW, WTR
24gb
8-12-32-4-24
or 16Gb:
8-8-32-4-16
remain correct,
But may be already approaching DIMM PCB limitation.
They are too tight, yet correct.
WTR_S at 4 is correct.

It just may or may not, at 8400++ become too fast for DIMM-PCB 🤭
Still remains correct and what should rather be fixed is RTTs, not touching RRD or WTR :)

EDIT:
Running RRD_L at 12 or h*ck even 14-16 , is not such a big deal either.
Unlike DDR4, there are double the amount of jumpable bankgroups (jump to while other is in recharge/processing state)
And many many banks plus dense ICs.
Especially because the blob of 4 each side (subchannel), both sides are independent ~ yet its not RDIMM to use them at the same time.
// Because those two (RRD & WTR) ~ the actions/jumps inside&outside of ICs , are handled and affected by RTTs. It goes hand in hand.
// Clean signal, less slowdown required on RRD or WTR. Smaller capacity, less delay required too for roundtrip.

Its not such of a performance loss.
Longer RFC is not a big issue either. Less, compared to DDR4.
Mostly because thanks to FGR, it only refreshes "per bank" .
// LPDDR4 is a good lookup resource for such information. They had the highest focus on efficiency and improved that topic for DDR5 & GDDR6.
Its not putting everything in halt while refreshing.
Many things happen at the same time, soo longer timings ~ as long as aligning ~ are not such a big issue.
High clock will anyways make up for it.
 
Zuletzt bearbeitet:
Just calculated WRRD, given recent discussion with "WTR_S" becoming ignored by the board ~ if too low.
8-12-32-8-24 is still fine

You can extend to 8-16-32-8-32 if you want.
It will be slow, but if you search for clock, its kind of irrelevant:)
Was just input on the change, as target is an awkward value.

WRites happen between the reads.
There needs alignment. Even if you can do silly things now with two MC's that are outside of specifications.
Alignment for roundtrip is either with Reads.
Alignment can be done with tBURST, lets say scale of 2*3 nCK instead scale of 2*4 nCK
And value can be random too, letting memory or CPU handle load assinging with possibly hitting empty holes that cause waiting for nothing

Same waiting for nothing that will happen if tRDRD_ , is not a factor of 8.
Can shorten roundtrip (_L) time, but sooner or later one whole cycle is just missed.

If I could suggest things,
WTR_,
Keep both values dividable by the same integer. Be it 6 or 4.
And then for WRWR_, add to the WTR_S value +8 on top.
That's your good value then.
Else "good value" is 16 on WRWR_SG & Communication-Hub will handle the rest.

8-16-32-8-32 (failsafe)
or
8-12-32-8-24
remain good values.
RRD, FAW, WTR

WRite after WRite is
WTR_S + 8nCK
First can be 4nCK long (min) - but correct correct formula:
first is exactly half of RRD_S == CCD_S
Whatever that value is set at.

Then 2nd write if no read is happening (aka tWRWR_ timing) ~ is VALUE +8 nCK.
Beitrag automatisch zusammengeführt:


24gb
8-12-32-4-24
or 16Gb:
8-8-32-4-16
remain correct,
But may be already approaching DIMM PCB limitation.
They are too tight, yet correct.
WTR_S at 4 is correct.

It just may or may not, at 8400++ become too fast for DIMM-PCB 🤭
Still remains correct and what should rather be fixed is RTTs, not touching RRD or WTR:)

EDIT:
Running RRD_L at 12 or h*ck even 14-16 , is not such a big deal either.
Unlike DDR4, there are double the amount of jumpable bankgroups (jump to while others are in recharge/processing state)
And many many banks plus dense ICs. Especially because 4 each side (subchannel) are independent.

It's not such a performance loss.
Longer RFC is not a big issue either. Less, compared to DDR4.
Mostly because thanks to FGR, it only refreshes "per bank" .
It's not putting everything in halt while refreshing.
Many things happen at the same time, so longer timing ~ as long as aligning ~ are not such a big issue.
High clock will make up for it anyway.

I just checked, WTR_L and WTR_S are both in Auto. So I will play around with 8-12-32-4-24,.. see what shakes out.

I remember when setting WTR in BIOS it shows in ATC 3, or 4 differance, so 24-8 will show as 28-12. (and)

8200 bios 1801 WTR.jpg
 
Zuletzt bearbeitet:
I just checked, WTR_L and WTR_S are both in Auto. So it is best to set WTR_L to 24 and WTR_S to 8. Sorry getting confused. :-)

Anhang anzeigen 964579
Do as before
WRRD_SG/DG is auto
So you dont have to do math every time you change CAS
Board has to be able to do the work for you

WTR tightening is helpful for perf.
tWR back to 24 ~ WRPRE/PDEN auto. Boards needs to set them correct
If you struggle, give 30 a shot. RTP still 12

Just go with your old foundation, not much has changed except Auto being more conservative.
Low level behavior change, shouldnt worry you.

Whatever you put tWR on. Its over WTRL as bare minimum. (because you miss a timing)
tWR in steps of 6 is good practice, but no requirement.

If you want to go fully failsafe and dont trust your dimms
BurstChop 8 = 8nCK
1706452253471.png

This is the target.
In reality its lower with many "it depends"
High tWR eats a lot of perf.
Try it out and report back how big the loss is~
Games and other synthetics.
 
Do as before
WRRD_SG/DG is auto
So you dont have to do math every time you change CAS
Board has to be able to do the work for you

WTR tightening is helpful for perf.
tWR back to 24 ~ WRPRE/PDEN auto. Boards needs to set them correct
If you struggle, give 30 a shot. RTP still 12

Just go with your old foundation, not much has changed except Auto being more conservative.
Low level behavior change, shouldnt worry you.

Whatever you put tWR on. Its over WTRL as bare minimum. (because you miss a timing)
tWR in steps of 6 is good practice, but no requirement.

If you want to go fully failsafe and dont trust your dimms
BurstChop 8 = 8nCK
Anhang anzeigen 964591
This is the target.
In reality its lower with many "it depends"
High tWR eats a lot of perf.
Try it out and report back how big the loss is~
Games and other synthetics.

Thank you, I will keep testing,..
working towards target, seems Cache & Memory Benchmark I ran after setting up profile vs the bios 0066 profile are very close, would be nice to bump Copy up a bit. :LOL:

8200 36 1.png Screenshot 2024-01-28 090430 8200 bios 1801 first run.png
 
@Veii
Some update without RX-DFE
Y ran 4 minutes, in second round VST was instant fail. (I closed the window by a mistake, sorry)
Anhang anzeigen 964646
Rerun y-cruncher :)
Nono, i think you have issues with sensors and cpu is unstable

Why do we run 6.2Ghz TVB on an unstable OC~
We may not be able to differenciate lack of IA supply.
 
Rerun y-cruncher :)
Nono, i think you have issues with sensors and cpu is unstable

Why do we run 6.2Ghz TVB on an unstable OC~
We may not be able to differenciate lack of IA supply.
Ran it again on a new setting.
MC 1.506V
TX 1.37V
RAM VDD/VDDQ 1.52
SA 1.235V

It ran 8 minutes before VT3 failed, now TM5 is running.
I have actually higher Voltage during Y than it needed.
6.2 is one core boost, TM5 is running on 59X. We will see when it's done. If it will be error 15 again, then I will turn off TVB during test.
Bitrates are promising actually.
1706464788419.png
 
Ran it again on a new setting.
MC 1.506V
TX 1.37V
RAM VDD/VDDQ 1.52
SA 1.235V

It ran 8 minutes before VT3 failed, now TM5 is running.
I have actually higher Voltage during Y than it needed.
6.2 is one core boost, TM5 is running on 59X. We will see when it's done. If it will be error 15 again, then I will turn off TVB during test.
Bitrates are promising actually.
Anhang anzeigen 964656
You still use ICCMAX right ??
OCN bios-txt published had non.

What happens with y-cruncher if you just RX-EQ start +1 ?
Skew menu
Stop is at negative value but auto

If hard fail ~ screenshot pls. Else run till 90-120min
Revert unless it passes.
Then,
What happens with both 1.8v CPU lines at 1.9v, not only AUX ?
I want to check for further issues. It may break SA.
If hard fail, weaken SA ~till sub 1.2v in -10mV steps.
if still hard fail that is enough as an answer. :)

Thank you~
 
Zuletzt bearbeitet:
You still use ICCMAX right ??
OCN bios-txt published had non.

What happens with y-cruncher if you just RX-EQ start +1 ?
Skew menu
Stop is at negative value but auto

If hard fail ~ screenshot pls. Else run till 90-120min
Revert unless it passes.
Then,
What happens with both 1.8v CPU lines at 1.9v, not only AUX ?
I want to check for further issues. It may break SA.
If hard fail, weaken SA ~till sub 1.2v in -10mV steps.
if still hard fail that is enough as an answer. :)

Thank you~
I will try that, but unfortunately got error 4 very soon.
1706466692694.png



It will be due to the lowered MC I believe.

I will raise the RAM VDD and MC in next try, but I have to finish testing for today.
The fun just began. :(
 
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